Stanfield Family

[florence]

I have been tracing family tree but stuck slightly with my husbands side, two names Louise Whittenbury who was the mother of James. Also trying to trace the mother of Lily Atherton, father was George Atherton mothers maiden name was green.

Lily married James Stanfield at Parish Church of Droylsden on 17th Dec 1938. Lily lived at 15 John William St, Clayton, Manchester, Lancashire England before the wedding then

[Gay J Oliver]

Hello Florence,

Looks like Lily Atherton's birth was registered at Prestwich in the December quarter of 1916 reference 632

Prestwich would have been the correct registration district.

Also I found a marriage between a Joseph Atherton and Agnes Green in the December quarter of 1913 also at Prestwich 584, but this is not GEORGE, could there be a mix up.

I also found a list of possible siblings

Gladys in 1918
George in 1920
Doris in 1921
John in 1924
Brian at 1926
Leslie 1927

Does this appear to be your family?

As regards Lousie Whittenbury and James, we would need more information with a few dates and perhaps James' father's name.

[Woody]

Hi Florence

Although there are one or two discrepancies between your own information and the evidence in the records, I think your Louise Whittenbury ancestors might well work out as follows:

Marriages Sep 1914:
Stanfield, James and Whittenbury, Louisa - Ashton (Droylsden, St Mary: ref CE11/5/198)

The 1901 census for Leigh, Lancashire has a Louisa Whittenburg living with her parents at 29 Jury Street, Westleigh. A look at the original document shows that the different name is a transcription error.

Joseph Whittenburg – Colour Mixer Calico Print works b Leigh - age 30
Emily Whittenburg - b Chorlton, Manchester - age 30
Louisa Whittenburg b Manchester - age 6

There’s a Chorlton, Manchester birth record for Louisa Whittenbury in 1895 - Vol ; page 256

Her parents’ marriage was probably in Mar 1893

Roden, Emily and Whittenbury, Joseph - Chorlton: Vol 8c; page 805

If Emily Whittenbury was indeed formerly Emily Roden, her birth was registered in 1868

RODEN, Emily: Hulme, Manchester (ref HUL/141/18)

That being so, the 1881 census gives us Emily Roden’s own family

1881 census for 186, Maine Rd, Moss Side, Manchester
RG number: RG11 Piece: 3940 Folio: 97 Page: 48
Reg. District: Chorlton
Sub District: Hulme
Parish: Moss Side City/Municipal Borough:

RODEN, Edwin - Head - Married - Male age 46 (abt 1835) Police Constable in Wellington, Shropshire
RODEN, Mary A - Wife - Married, Female age 45 (abt 1836) in Wellington, Shropshire
RODEN, William J - Son - Single, M (abt 1862) in Manchester, Lancashire
RODEN, Edwin - Son - Single M, (abt 1863) in Manchester
RODEN, Mary A - Daughter - Single, F (abt 1866) in Manchester
RODEN, Emily - Daughter - Single, F (abt 1868) in Manchester
RODEN, Albert H - Son - Single, M (abt 1870) in Manchester
RODEN, Ta?ar, - Daughter - Single, F (abt 1872) in Manchester
RODEN, Charlotte - Daughter - Single, F (abt 1875) in Manchester
RODEN, Louise - Daughter - Single, F (abt 1878) in Manchester

A second discrepancy is that the most likely ‘Atherton/ Green’ marriage does not involve George Atherton. Rather, there's a marriage registered in 1913 at Prestwich between Joseph Atherton and Agnes Green - Vol , page 584

There are then several subsequent Prestwich birth registrations, mother's former name Green, one of which which is Lily Atherton.

I might just be plain wrong, but it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve found that a marriage record transcriptions that displays the wrong name so I think it’s worth your while to explore the possibility more fully.

For the record, the other children registered are; you might be able to recognise connections.

Dec 1916: Atherton, Lily Green Prestwich 632
Sep 1918: Atherton, Gladys Green Prestwich 576
Mar 1920: Atherton, George Green Prestwich 977
Dec 1921: Atherton, Doris Green Prestwich 684
Jun 1924: Atherton, John Green Prestwich 664
Mar 1926: Atherton, Brian Green Manchester N. 814
Jun 1927: Atherton, Leslie Green Manchester N. 815

If any of these seem to fit, I don't mind doing a bit more

Cheers

Woody

[florence]

Thank you Gay and Woody for this information I was stuc trying to piece it all together just one strange thing on the Atherton link as I have the original marriage certificate of Lily Atherton and James Stanfield dated 17th Dec 1938 number 148 where it says father George Atherton his job was a foreman fitter.

The number top left of the certificate is D 592468 also has a small 2 under the D.

[Gay J Oliver]

Hello again Florence,

I have been trying to sort out the difference between George and or Joseph Atherton and it is giving me a headache!! Perhaps WOODY would also like to think around it with me. I think I'm going round in circles.

Can you tell me where you have your information from to say that Lily's mother's maiden name was GREEN and are you happy that she could have been born in 1916. If so the only candidates for her parents are Joseph Atherton and Agnes Green.

The complication being that I have found a George Frederick Atherton in the 1901 census aged 26 living at 35 Alice Street, Bradford. He is an engine fitter, but married to Susannah - they have no children. I could send you a copy of the census image

I then found a marriage between a George F Atherton and Susannah Lomas in the December Quarter of 1895 Chorlton 8c 1001.

It looks like George F is on the 1911 census and it would be very interesting to buy a copy of the census image for this via
1911Census.co.uk.

I have found the death of a Sussanah Atherton aged 38 in the March quarter of 1914.

So if there is a transcription error on that Joseph and Agnes marriage in 1913 and the mistake was that Joseph was actually George, he wouldn't yet have been free to marry.

It also looks like there is a Joseph Atherton on the 1911 census in Prestwich so both might help clear up the mystery. Sadly I couldn't find this Joseph on earlier censuses.

There are about 4 other Lily Athertons born in Manchester from 1900 to 1916. What is your evidence that her mother was called GREEN?

[Woody]

Hi Gay & Florence

Don’t mind sharing my own disorientation about this family with you both for a while. It’s a real puzzle. The thing’s full of conflicting information and some of the key searches are no easier because they’re post-1911 census.

I share your logic Gay, having arrived at almost exactly similar conclusions based on the evidence I collected. On the other hand, if we’ve arrived at the same conclusions independently of each other, it probably means we’re not too far from being on the money and that the focus can be narrowed considerably.

Certificates aren’t always foolproof, and that’s not always due to transcription error. I’ve just had a debate with my mother’s neighbour about her great-grandfather, Arthur, who in 1893 gave his father’s name as ‘Joseph’ on the marriage certificate. When we recently found other living people in the line, they all knew his father to be ‘Abraham’. Turned out Arthur had been economical with the truth on the marriage certificate to disguise his Jewish ancestry to his new wife’s mining family.

Do you have any suggestions about how we should set about the job ?

[Gay J Oliver]

Hello Woody,

Thanks very much for your thoughts - it's always a welcome reassurance to know that you haven't missed something obvious.

I am always a bit wary when it gets to this stage, when free indexes and searches run out and when it might mean beginning to purchase things like the 1911 census images or BMD Certificates, that I am not advising people to buy the wrong things.

My first thoughts would be to purchase the 1911 census image for George F Atherton to see if he and Susannah have a daughter Lily and that Lily's mother was not a GREEN after all.

Florence, I take it that you don't have Lily's birth certificate or you would have known her mother's full name and that the information on her marriage certificate definitely points to the George F Atherton, the engine fitter, who was married to Susannah. Does it give her age on the marriage certificate or does it only show "of Full Age"?

Do you have Lily's death certificate, or know where she is buried? This might give another clue about her date of birth.
How did you find out her mother was a GREEN?

I think any extra clues might help us to sort this out, even the names of Lily and James, children.

There is always another scenario that sometimes happens. A child of a family may have been brought up by a brother or sister of it's natural father and only gets to know it's real father's name later in life, or visa versa thinks of the father who brought her up as her real father.

So think hard Florence - the slightest clue, please!

[Gay J Oliver]

Have just found something else which might help or muddy the water even more.

George F Atherton remarried in the June quarter of 1916 Prestwich 690 to Gertrude A GREENHALGH

That is six months or so before the birth registration of a Lily Atherton, mother's maiden name GREEN in Prestwich in December quarter 1916.

Got to go out now, but will look for any ATHErTON/GREENHALGH offspring later to see if Florence's husband knows any of the names as potential great aunts or uncles.

[Gay J Oliver]

Hello again Florence and Woody,

These may be red herrings but I have found the following birth registrations on Free BMD. Could very well be stretching the bounds of credibility here and if these are George F's children from a second marriage, he would have been about 60 when the last one was born.

Would your husband recognise any of these names, Florence?


Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page

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Births Dec 1917 (>99%)
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Atherton Sarah E Greenhalgh Wigan 8c 191

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Births Sep 1919 (>99%)
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Atherton Timothy Greenhalgh Wigan 8c 228

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Births Sep 1921 (>99%)
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Atherton Albert Greenhalgh Wigan 8c 265

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Births Sep 1923 (>99%)
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Atherton Eric Greenhalgh Bolton 8c 503

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Births Sep 1924 (>99%)
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Atherton Stanley Greenhalgh Wigan 8c 180

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Births Mar 1926 (>99%)
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Atherton Harold Greenhalgh Wigan 8c 193

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Births Mar 1929 (>99%)
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Atherton Leonard Greenhalgh Wigan 8c 170

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Births Mar 1930 (>99%)
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Atherton Joyce Greenhalgh Wigan 8c 153

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Births Mar 1936 (>99%)
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Atherton Clifford Greenhalgh Wigan 8c 137

[Woody]

Chapter 110

Thanks Gay. I'd just found the same lot using Ancestry so we're probably on the right track for that particular marriage. Whilst I was at it, I also used your information to track both Susannah Lomas and George Frederick Atherton back through the census returns to 1881. I saved the documents if either you or Florence want them.

I haven’t yet quite worked it all out but in 1891, the George Frederick I tracked was an apprentice fitter living at 23 Clayton Lane, Bradford. More to the point, there are two families – Athertons and McLellands - several of whom are fitters, living in the house. In 1881, this family of Athertons was living at 15, Booth St, Chorlton Upon Medlock and Thomas Atherton, head of the house, was an iron driller. Eliza McLelland is listed as ‘mother-in-law’ so, somewhere, there’s a connection I haven’t yet found.

If I’m on the right track, George’s father was Thomas Atherton (b 1843), mother Elizabeth (b 1845) and there were five children Martha Ann (b 1870); Lily (b 1872; d 1872) George Frederick (b 1874); Ethel (b 1878) and Ada (b 1880; d 1887) all registered at Chorlton.

Births:

George Frederick Atherton, registered at Chorlton in 1874
Susannah Lomas, registered at Chorlton (Ardwick) in 1876: ARD/131/99
Gertrude Ellen Greenhalgh, registered Bolton 1892: 8c 502

Marriages:

Susannah Lomas: Manchester, Chorlton-on-Medlock St. Ambrose in 1895: ARD/131/99

The only problem with the probable 2nd marriage to Gertrude Ellen Greenhalgh at Prestwich, 1916 is that somebody has obviously got into a complete muddle with the records.

In FreeBMD, the listing fits exactly. However, in LancashireBMD both names have mistakes in them. He’s registered as George ‘T’ Atherton and Gertrude is listed as ‘Susannah Greenhalgh’. To be a different couple would be some coincidence so I'd settle for it being George’s second marriage.If it needs to be verified, the exact place of marriage was Farnworth & Kearsley Parish Church, St John The Evangelist, the records are kept at Bolton and the reference is 27/9/122. Gertrude would have been 24 and George 42 at marriage.

Deaths:

Susannah Lomas [Atherton] age 38, registered at Prestwich 1914: [ 690]
George Frederick Atherton, age 53, registered at Manchester North 1927 [ 525]

I suspect Gertrude remarried after George's death (Manchester North, 1933 to somebody called Makin)

For my money, the Joseph Atherton/ Agnes Green connection I suggested can now be binned, along with the ‘Prestwich children’ I found. They’re all born too late for Susannah to be the mother, and I can’t see Gertrude not knowing her own maiden name or the registrar/ transcriber getting it wrong seven times.

All this is plausible enough but we’re still left with the puzzle of where the name ‘Green’ fits in, Lily’s birth, and George's probable death before four of the children you found in Wigan were born, Gay.

Typically, one set of potential answers has simply posed a further set of unwanted questions and since I'm now going cross-eyed again, I'll have another think tomorrow.

[florence]

The trouble is that the names apart for George are the names we have for Lily's siblings.

Leslie lived in audenshaw/ashton area but there are some half brothers/sisters not sure which need to go and talk to my husbands older sister she will know more but at present stuck bedsitting at hospital with my mother who is very ill.

Sorry if slow replying it is very stressfulk watching someone slowly die for months been here since 21st Feb yoyoing criticle then not to bounce right down again.

[sandra]

Florence

~~sending a hug~~

I went through the same thing with my mum - thankfully only for 4 months.

I know others on this forum have been in the position of watching someone they love dearly slowly sink away - we DO understand

Please believe me, later down the road you will be glad you spent this time with her

Sandra

[ginger]

Hi Florence
my hugs too

(‘Green’ fits in, Woody 16th Aug)

I haven't got to grips with all the info on Stanfields (brain to tired) but I did wonder if it was possible that the halgh was missed off the Green surname at sometime

Mo

[florence]

Thank you Sandra and Ginger feeling rather hopeless at present mum has decided it is time she is refusing all medication, food and drinks they have placed her on a drip due to her starting to dehydrate.

I have the death certificate for Lily she was born on 7th November 1916 died 2nd November 1971.

Scan of marriage certificate.

www.kittysworld.co.uk/images/family%20documents/image1.jpg
www.kittysworld.co.uk/images/family%20documents/image2.jpg

[Woody]

So sorry to read about your plight, Florence, and although there’s probably nothing any of us can say that will do much to ease your distress, our thoughts are obviously with you.

On the 'Atherton' ancestry front, we’ve probably all learned to our cost that guesswork is usually very unproductive. As Gay said earlier, there sometimes comes a point when guesswork using only free sites simply won’t produce the goods.

I think that without investing a groat or two in a couple of key two bits of solid information (either a birth certificate for Lily which should give her mother’s full name, or the 1911 census return which will tell us who lives there), we’ll all just continue to go round in circles.

However, Ginger’s contribution yesterday prompted me to reconsider the Prestwich-born children I found initially whose mother’s name is ‘Green’.

If only to clear my brain, I decided to summarise the facts gleaned from the various forum suggestions and other free resources. I started with the indisputable information on Lily’s marriage certificate.

Facts:

Lily’s father is George Atherton, and his given occupation is that of ‘fitter’. (marriage certificate)

A Lily Atherton birth was registered at Prestwich in December 1916, mother’s maiden name ‘Green’ (Vol page 632)

Lily’s marriage certificate confirms her date of birth as November 1916

A George (Frederick) Atherton birth was registered at Chorlton, 1874 (Vol 8c page 731)

George F Atherton can be tracked through all the census returns 1881 – 1901, always in the Manchester area and always a fitter (copies of census returns)

A Susannah Atherton, born Gorton 1876, is the wife of George F Atherton and the childless couple are living at 33, Alice Street, Bradford [part of the North Manchester civil parish] (1901 census return)

Marriage between George Frederick Atherton and Susannah Lomas registered at Chorlton, 1895 (Vol 8c page 1001)

A Susannah Lomas birth was registered at Chorlton, 1876 (Vol 8c page 766)

Susannah Lomas (Atherton) can be tracked through all the census returns 1881 – 1901.

Susannah Atherton (b 1875) is living at Prestwich (1911 census basic search)

Death registration for a Susannah Atherton (age 38) at Prestwich March qtr, 1914 (Vol page 558)

George F Atherton, born 1874 and living in Prestwich (1911 census basic search)

Probablities:

Marriage between a George Atherton and Gertrude Ellen Greenhalgh at Prestwich in 1914

There are discrepancies between transcriptions of the marriage details on different electronic sites. In FreeBMD, the listing fits exactly. However, in LancashireBMD both names have mistakes in them. He’s registered as George ‘T’ Atherton and Gertrude is listed as ‘Susannah Greenhalgh’

George Frederick Atherton's first wife was called Susannah

A Gertude E Greenhalgh birth was registered at Bolton 1892 (Vol 8c page 502)

A Gertude E Greenhalgh living at 9 Snowdon Street, Bolton (1901 census return)

A Gertude E Greenhalgh, born 1891 is living at Bolton (1911 census basic search)

Geographically, Prestwich borders Bolton (the Prestwich registration district was abolished and re-named ‘Manchester North’ in 1925)

Death registered at Manchester North in 1927 for a George F Atherton, age 53 (ie born 1974) [Vol page 525]

Marriage registration for Gertrude Atherton to ? Makin, Manchester North in 1933 (Vol page 1142)

There are 6 other Atherton children whose births were registered at Prestwich within the right timescale, although the mother’s maiden name is transcribed as ‘Green’, not 'Greenhalgh' (FreeBMD index)

Dec 1916: Atherton, Lily Green Prestwich 632
Sep 1918: Atherton, Gladys Green Prestwich 576
Mar 1920: Atherton, George Green Prestwich 977
Dec 1921: Atherton, Doris Green Prestwich 684
Jun 1924: Atherton, John Green Prestwich 664
Mar 1926: Atherton, Brian Green Manchester N. 814
Jun 1927: Atherton, Leslie Green Manchester N. 815 **

** From your forum posting yesterday, this could be the Leslie Atherton you recognise as living in Audenshaw. The birth is on the cusp of the George Atherton timescale but it's certainly possible.

Possibilities:

In the 1911 census, there are 3 Atherton children living in Prestwich (1911 census basic search).

Alfred Atherton b 1897
Alice Atherton b 1899
Fred Atherton b 1899

It might be that these children belong to George and Susannah, although I couldn’t find even an indirect connection between any of them in a quick 1901 census search. That said, Fred is in hospital as a patient.

It might be that George then re-married, to Gertrude Greenhalgh

It might be that Alfred, Alice and Fred are the step-children you refer to in your posting yesterday

Although I’ll have missed something and there's still no absolute certainty, that process at least purged my own brain. We all understand that your priorities lie elsewhere at the moment, Florence, but if you would profit from a distraction, or when you're more able to collect your thoughts, it might first be worth risking a few groats on Lily's birth certificate and the 1911 census at least.

Corrections or modifications welcome.

Best wishes

Woody