|
Post by peggytoof on May 26, 2009 11:51:06 GMT
Does anyone know where i can find a list of scools pre 1850 in Ashton & Middleton,kind regards Lisaxxx
|
|
Woody
Full Member
Posts: 241
|
Post by Woody on May 26, 2009 18:20:30 GMT
Hi Lisa
I had a quick look for Robert Jones Whitworth but, like you, couldn't find anything obvious. Neither could I find a marriage to Ann Parker in Middleton, although there's one in Ashton, 1842.
An evaluation of information on the various free sites suggests that Robert was born in about 1817, though goodness knows where. I think I managed to trace his son, William Jones Whitworth to Bury in 1881 & 1891. Have a look at this stuff and see what you think.
Marriages Sep 1842 Ashton under Lyne
PARKER Ann WHITWORTH Robert Jones
Deaths Dec 1854 Ashton under Lyne - Whitworth, Ann
Marriages Dec 1858 Ashton under Lyne
Hobson, Mary Murphy, Jane Whitworth, Robert Jones
Deaths Jun 1868 Ashton under Lyne - Whitworth, Robert Jones (aged 51)
Marriages Dec 1871 Blackburn
Garstang, Mary Jane Whitworth, William Jones
Births Jun 1875 Halifax, West Yorkshire Whitworth, William Jones
1881 census transcription details for: 92, Wash Lane, Bury National Archive Reference: RG number: RG11 Piece: 3864 Folio: 10 Page: 13 Reg. District: Bury Sub District: North Bury Enum. District: Ecclesiastical District: Parish: Bury City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 92, Wash Lane, Bury County: Lancashire Name Relation Age Birth Year Occupation, Disability Where Born WHITWORTH, William J, Head Married (37) 1844 Sewing Machine Agent: Ashton Under Lyne WHITWORTH, Mary J J, Wife Married (32) 1849: Blackburn, Lancashire WHITWORTH, Beatrice A J Daugh (7) 1874 Scholar: Ashton Under Lyne WHITWORTH, Reginald J Son (5) 1876 Scholar: Blackburn WHITWORTH, Clara M J Daugh (4) 1877: Rochdale WHITWORTH, Arthur J Son (1) 1880: Rochdale GARSTANG, Alice Maud Visitor Single (17) 1864: Instructress Sewing Machines: Blackburn
The 1891 census has William J Whitworth living at 50 Moorgate, Bury and there is a further child, Ethel, b 1882 at Bury. William is still a sewing machine agent and it seems that he died only three years later.
Deaths Dec 1894 Bury 8c 350 - WHITWORTH, William Jones (age 51)
Are we on the right track ?
Cheers
Woody
|
|
|
Post by Gay J Oliver on May 26, 2009 21:56:05 GMT
Hello Lisa,
At this early date the only place you are likely to find lists of schools is under Academies and Schools in Trade Directories.
Slater's Directory of 1855 for Lancashire is on-line at Ancestry, but sadly I couldn't find your Robert's name listed in Ashton-under-Lyne at this time.
I'll try and check other trade directories next time I am in our local studies library. This won't be until next Tuesday though.
very best wishes, GAY
|
|
|
Post by peggytoof on May 27, 2009 5:35:28 GMT
Thankks Woody,the second section of your post IS my family,info on robert's son. The problem im having is i also thought he remarried Mary Hobson nee Greensmith,on the Ancestry record it states his father as being Samuel,but on obtaining his marriage cert to Ann Parker,it says his father was John Jones Whitworth!!!!!!!! Any ideas???
|
|
Woody
Full Member
Posts: 241
|
Post by Woody on May 27, 2009 15:25:58 GMT
Hi Lisa There do seem to be a few discrepancies between the various public records, but I’m quite certain you’re right about Robert marrying Mary Hobson. Here’s how I think it works out. Mary Greensmith married Charles Hobson at Mottram-in-Longdendale (St Michael) in 1853. Charles then died in 1856 at Dukinfield leaving Mary free to marry Robert Jones Whitworth two years later. The most tempting possibility I found for Robert was in the 1861 census where there’s a shopkeeper of the right age living at 252 Stamford Street, Ashton under Lyne:- Robert Whitworth 43, shopkeeper b Ashton Under Lyme Mary Whitworth 34, Roadalby? Yorkshire (indecipherable) William Whitworth 17, Son Machanic b Ashton Under Lyme Henery Whitworth 14, Son b Ashton Under Lyme Sarah Whitworth 9, Dau b Ashton Under Lyme George Whitworth 7, Son b Stalybridge Ann Whitworth 1, Dau b Ashton Under Lyme The clincher for this being your Robert Whitworth and Mary Hobson is that son George Whitworth was actually born George Hobson (Dukinfield, 1854). The youngest child, Ann, must have been Mary and Robert’s own daughter, and you’d have to assume that all the rest were Robert’s children with deceased wife, Ann Parker. Since he wasn’t a schoolmaster I ignored this 1861 census information yesterday, but I did pause to think about the possibility of Robert having left the teaching profession in favour of something more lucrative. I’m now also wondering about the possibility that he wasn’t ever a permanent schoolmaster, but rather, perhaps, a Sunday School teacher. There are possible BMD records for most of the people listed above, the most notable being a death for a Mary Whitworth in 1869 at Ashton under Lyne, the year after Robert died. That would explain why neither of them can be found in subsequent census records. As to suggestions about Robert’s father, you’ll have no doubt already found that literacy wasn’t exactly an early Victorian strength and whilst many people could read, the vast majority were unable to write. In those circumstances, the enumerator (or Registrar, etc.) would have to complete the form on their behalf, but then frequently spelled names just as they sounded. ‘Jones’, for example, isn’t a million miles away from ‘Jonas’, and during my quick search I came across several spellings of the name Whitworth – ‘Whithworth’; ‘Witworth’; etc. On the off-chance, I tried a broad census search for ‘Jonas’ without success. In the 1841 census especially, I’ve also found that people were apt either to drop one or more of their given names, or, to use the name by which they were more commonly known (e.g. ‘Betty’ rather than ‘Elizabeth’), all of which can add uncertainty to searches. It’s only a guess, but the answer might simply be that Robert’s father was more properly ‘Samuel John Whitworth’, and used one or other of his given names at different points in his life. On the Cheshire BMD site, for example, the published birth record for William Jones Whitworth is plain ‘William’, although the actual certificate may well give his full name. There are IGI listings in Ashton under Lyne for Samuel Whitworth on the Latter Day Saints website that you might want to explore - www.familysearch.org. Cheers Woody
|
|
|
Post by Gay J Oliver on Oct 29, 2009 22:45:17 GMT
Hello Lisa,
I have been going over yours and Woody's information again and trying to think of a reason why Robert gave his father's name as John Jones Whitworth at his marriage to Ann Parker in 1842, and then Samuel Whitworth when he married Mary Hobson (nee Greensmith).
I can't really think of a good reason, unless one was his real father and the other brought him up.
Anyway I ended up searching for a JONES connection and found a marriage of a SAMUEL WHITWORTH to a MARY JONES at Rochdale St Chads 15 February 1801
According to the Lancashire OPC website, Samuel was from Milnrow and Mary from Birchenley.
A poor rate for Milnrow shows a Samuel Whitworth from Clegg Hall paying ten shillings rate.
It looks as though Mary died in January 1827 at Clegg Hall and Samuel died in Milnrow in January 1847.
I have found some baptisms for children of Samuel and Mary at Milnrow and Royton and will get back to you later. There isn't a baptism for Robert, but there is a suitable gap in the dates. There may also be two potential Samuel's and Mary, because some of the dates are too close together - more research is needed.
|
|
Woody
Full Member
Posts: 241
|
Post by Woody on Nov 2, 2009 4:14:30 GMT
Gay/ Lisa
When I was searching for Robert Jones Whitworth, John Jones Whitworth and Samuel Whitworth last August, I didn't manage to find anything informative for any of them apart from the 1861 census for Robert J. He was a shopkeeper at 252 Stamford Street, Ashton at the time.
We did, however, manage to trace most of the ancestors on that census return, although a burial place for Robert J is still outstanding (1868, registered Ashton)
I certainly can't think of a more logical explanation for the different fathers' names appearing on the marriage certificate, Gay. George Whitworth who appears on the 1861 census later proved to be George Hobson, Robert J's step-son, so the pattern is there.
I do remember that all my 'Whitworth' searches consistently pushed me in the direction of Rochdale/ Castleton so let's hope this new information proves to be the breakthrough Lisa was seeking. If you want me to pick up the research again, let me know.
PS - Does anybody know how far back the Tameside Reporter archive held in the Tameside Family History Library goes ? 1868, for example ?
|
|
|
Post by lindylou on Nov 3, 2009 11:48:32 GMT
Hi Woody This info is from the Local Studies web page. Hope you find what your looking for. "Ashton was a centre for newspaper publishing from the 1850s, producing local papers and some regional titles such as the Cotton Factory Times.
Microfilmed copies of most local newspapers from the mid-nineteenth century to date are available here. Please telephone to book a reader in advance."
|
|
|
Post by peggytoof on Nov 4, 2009 8:13:22 GMT
hi Guys,still no joy im afraid :'(trouble is i dont know where to go now ???i've tried all i can thinkof.i spoke to a guy at the records office(burials) he searched Ashton & Hurst & Dukinfield & found nothing!!!!!i cant see any point buying the death cert as i dont think there will be anything on there that will help.So its just knowing what to try next,without a definate birth year it all seems impossible.i think your probably right bout the different fathers names but i dont want to add them just in case they are wrong,i did that before & had to delete bout 40 names,very demoralising kind regards Lisa xxx
|
|
|
Post by Gay J Oliver on Nov 4, 2009 23:10:16 GMT
Hi Lisa,
Can you send me the full details which appear on Robert Jones Whitworth's marriage certificate to Ann Parker, including Robert's occupation and his father's occupation and the names of the witnesses, even if they managed to sign the register or not.
I'm still working on building up circumstantial evidence.
|
|
|
Post by peggytoof on Nov 5, 2009 8:13:32 GMT
H Gay 'details are as follows
They married at parish church of middleton 24th August 1842 Robert Jones Whitworth Ann Parker,both "of age" Bachelor & spinster Roberts occupation "schoolmaster" Grooms father; John Joes Whitworth,Tinner Brides father;John Parker,watchmaker By Banns Witness's James Fawley Nanny "Finith" ? it looks as though the regisrar has sighned for them,although only Ann & Nanny have put the cross as their mark, thanks Gay,good luck,i sure as hell need it!!!!!!!!!! kind regards Lisa xxx
|
|
|
Post by peggytoof on Nov 5, 2009 8:15:09 GMT
sorry Gay,that should be Jones not Joes
|
|
|
Post by Gay J Oliver on Nov 6, 2009 11:32:57 GMT
I got the chance to look up Robert Jones Whitworth's second marriage to Mary Hobson yesterday in the Archives Library:
Robert Jones Whitworth, widower, Agent, Father Samuel Tin Plate Worker
Mary Hobson, widow, father William Greensmith Labourer
Robert signed Mary cross Witnesses Squire Farrand, James Newton
Notice that Samuel Whitworth has the same occupation as the supposed John Jones Whitworth at Robert's first marriage to Ann Parker.
I can send you a bit of a blurred copy of a photograph I took of the Film.
Woody has some much more exciting information for you in that he has found Samuel Whitworth TIN PLATE WORKER in the 1841 and 1851 census.
|
|
Woody
Full Member
Posts: 241
|
Post by Woody on Nov 7, 2009 12:21:33 GMT
We’ve been struggling with this one for some time now, and I might finally have some good news for you, Lisa. However, the stuff I’ve found isn’t a perfect match to all the information we already have.
The authentic identity of Robert Jones Whitworth’s father has always been a significant blockage, although there is one common feature with both possibilities - his father’s occupation on each marriage certificate is ‘tinner’ or ‘tin plate worker’.
If we take him to be the John Jones Whitworth stated on the marriage certificate to Ann Parker in 1842, we can find absolutely no trace of him.
On the other hand, if we take the father to be the Samuel Whitworth stated on the second marriage certificate to Mary Geensmith/ Hobson in 1858, I found 1841 & 1851 Ashton under Lyne census documents that tick most of the right boxes.
I linked the information Gay provided from her very recent research to the information we already had from previous research, then tried to couple it to the exact details on the marriage certificates you both provided.
At Pitt Street, Ashton under Lyne in 1841, the head of household is Samuel Whitworth, he is a tin plate worker, his wife is Mary and, amongst the several other children, there is a Robert Whitworth living there in 1841. Robert Jones Whitworth married Ann Parker the following year and, sure enough, there's no Robert with this family in 1851, by which time they’d moved to Duncan Street and only son, James., remains at home.
It looks as though wife, Mary dies in 1855, and that Samuel remarries a widow, Elizabeth Walker/ Gooddard later the same year. I think he appears at 1 Swift's Yard, Ashton under Lyne in the 1871 census where his occupation is 'cutler', but there's a probable death record in 1873.
Cheshire Death indexes for the years: 1873 WHITWORTH Samuel (77) Ashton Town Tameside AST/66/18
When you’ve had chance to evaluate the census documents I can send you, it would be useful to know whether, like us, you think these facts are too strong to be pure coincidence.
While I was on the case, I also tried to find the witnesses to each marriage, just to determine whether there was any corroborative family connection.
Marriage 1 (1841): James Fawley; Nanny "Finith" ?
There’s a Stockport marriage in 1844 between James Fawley and Mary Ann Hobson that got me quite excited, but it’s far more likely that these are the two people concerned.
Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1844
FAWLEY James SMITH Nanny Stockport, St Mary Stockport ST16/4/130
I couldn’t find them in 1851 but I didn’t do an exhaustive search.
Marriage 2 (1858): Squire Farrand; James Newton
I found census possibilities which I can send if you want them
Hope this helps
|
|
Woody
Full Member
Posts: 241
|
Post by Woody on Nov 7, 2009 12:30:14 GMT
Thanks for the Archives info, Lindylou. I'll have a look when I can get there.
Woody
|
|