delsol
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by delsol on Apr 27, 2009 10:00:09 GMT
I've just finished reading this great book by Andrew Davies.
He unpacks 'scuttling' in the poorer slum districts of Ancoats, Ardwick, and all the mill/factory areas surrounding the city in the 1800s.
My ancestors Joshua and John Saxon moved from Dukinfield to Manchester in the 1860s and John Saxon married an Ellen McLoughlin. Although not directly mentioned in the book I know that her brother John was a scuttler. This book was invaluable in providing a social background to the way they lived their lives in the City, how everybody, whether involved in the Gangs or not, would be affected by them.
A grim but fascinating read.
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Post by lindylou on Apr 27, 2009 10:58:52 GMT
I enjoyed the book too. If you join Lancashire Libraries you can read newspaper reports written at the time. They really are interesting. www.lancashire.gov.uk/libraries
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Ann
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Post by Ann on Sept 18, 2009 22:27:49 GMT
Had a look at this book whilst at Tameside Local Studies, this week. In the list of names at back was a Charlie Stansfield alias Charlie Lee, a member of the Gorton Scuttlers who was sentenced to 9 months for unlawful wounding for an assault in Oct 1889. An ancestor of mine, 18 year old Charles Stanfield, lived in Gorton at that time, with his stepfather, John Lee. I would like to check if they are the same person.
Have tried (and joined) the lancs libraries site lindylou suggests above, but couldn't find any reports about the scuttlers. Can you do this online or do you have to go in person? Any advice, please?
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Woody
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Post by Woody on Sept 20, 2009 2:12:28 GMT
Hi Ann
I have a copy of the Manchester Quarter Sessions trial outcome record (6th December, 1889) if you want it. However, there's no indication of age or address so it doesn’t tell you anything you don't already know. Looks like he was convicted along with several others charged with either the same offence, unlawful wounding, or riot.
“A scuttler is a lad, usually between the ages of 14 and 18, or even 19, and scuttling consists of the fighting of two opposed bands of youths, who are armed with various weapons.” Alexander Devine, Scuttlers and Scuttling: Their Prevention and Cure. (Manchester, 1890).
There’s quite a lot of descriptive stuff about ‘scuttlers’ available on the web – just Google ‘Gorton Scuttlers’ - and the Gorton Reporter newspaper looks like the one to go for.
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Post by lindylou on Sept 21, 2009 8:21:38 GMT
Hi Ann You view the newspapers on line. You need to log in using the library card number. There is a report of the scuttler Charles Stansfield in the Manchester Times Dec 14th 1889 but as Woody points out there are no personal details. What about trying the censuses 1881 & 1891 to see if the others involved in the case were living in the same area as your Charles? Bit of a long shot but worth a try.
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Post by Gerard Lodge on Sept 22, 2009 20:36:54 GMT
I can’t add very much detail to what has already been stated about the Stansfield case, but I can offer some historical background to the complexities of the relationship between the Manchester and Salford Courts which can be quite confusing, especially as to their locations and the areas covered by the Manchester Quarter Sessions
In the main in the 19th century there were three types of courts which operated in the Salford Hundred. They were the Police or Magistrates’ Courts; the Quarter Sessions (of the King’s or Queen’s Peace) and the Assize Courts.
Prior to 1835 the Lancashire Assizes Courts, which tried capital and other serious offences which were too serious for the Quarter Sessions, took place at Lancaster. In 1835 the Assize Courts for the Hundreds of West Derby and Salford were moved to Liverpool. On July 26th 1864 the first ever separate Assizes for the Salford Hundred took place in Manchester. The newspapers of the day (and much later) referred to these Assizes in the various guises of the Manchester Assizes, the South Lancashire Assizes and even the Crown court.
Up until 1839 any felonies which were not serious enough to be heard at the Assize Courts went before the Salford Hundred Quarter Sessions which were normally held at the New Bailey Prison Court. On April 1st 1839 Manchester was granted its own separate Quarter Sessions. Its jurisdiction was within the Borough and later City boundaries. Any other similar crimes in the rest of the Salford Hundred were still heard at the Salford Hundred Quarter Sessions. Crime in Manchester grew to such an extent that Intermediate Sessions had to held so there could be as many as seven Sessions in any one year
The Police Courts dealt with misdemeanours and other less weighty matters and were held very often.
Unfortunately the Strangeways Prison Registers for the period covering the four different prison sentences handed out to Charlie Stansfield have not survived, at least that is what the Prison Authorities are saying. I have my doubts about that, but that is another story.
However some records about Charlie Stansfield should have survived. The crime was committed in Gorton which in 1899 had not been incorporated into the City of Manchester. This means that the Scuttlers’ case was heard at the Salford Hundred Quarter Sessions, which from June 1868 happened to be held at the Assize Court, Strangeways, Manchester. This means that records for this case are at Salford and not Manchester
I know that some Salford Hundred Quarter Sessions records have survived and they are held at Bexley Square. I am fairly certain that this is where Andrew Davies did some of his research. There may be an outside chance that there are some records containing addresses which have survived. If all that has survived are the Bills of Indictments, then it is unlikely any addresses would appear on them. However I think it is worth enquiring about.
Gerard
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Ann
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Post by Ann on Sept 23, 2009 15:20:24 GMT
Thanks for all the info above - it's proved extremely helpful! I checked the report in the Manchester Weekly Times for 14 Dec 1889 for Charles Stansfield then moved on to the Gorton Reporter. The Gorton Reporter of the same date shows Charles's name as Stanfield, alias Lee. I still have to check on the other boys names in the census, but I feel certain this is my Charles Stanfield. I hope he grew out of it!!
The historical info about the courts of the time should help me when I look into his "records" further.
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Ann
New Member
Posts: 17
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Post by Ann on Oct 3, 2009 9:19:09 GMT
Woody - I would like to see the trial outcome info you have if possible, as I'm not sure what it is? Thanks Ann
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Woody
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Post by Woody on Oct 3, 2009 11:21:26 GMT
Hi Ann
It's just a photocopy of the original handwritten ledger page from Charlie Stanfield's Quarter Sessions trial on 27th November, 1889. It lists the names of the various accused that day showing" ... the nature of their offences and the results of the proceedings" (the outcome).
I'll send you a personal message to sort out how best to get a copy to you.
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delsol
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by delsol on Dec 8, 2010 13:12:32 GMT
Hi Woody, You don't by any chance have the Quarter sessions record for any of these people: Elizabeth McLoughlin 28 Jun 1875; William mcloughlin 28 Nov 1883; John McLoughlin 11 Dec 1878 or 20 Jul 1881 or 30 Jul 1883? Other than than could you advise me as to how I would access these records? I've heard that there are physical descriptions of the criminals too, is that correct? Thanks, Jill
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Post by Gerard Lodge on Dec 8, 2010 15:29:45 GMT
Hello Jill,
I am not Woody, but I can tell you that three people by the names of John, William and Eliza McLoughlin all appeared on more than one indictment at the Quarter Session at Manchester starting on 11th December 1878 ( M116/2/4/241). These records are kept by Manchester Archives and can be viewed by appointment at Marshall Street.
I can not see any references to them on the other dates that you mention for the Manchester Quarter Sessions.
The indictments for the Quarter Sessions do not normally give any information other than the name of the accused, the crime(s) and whom committed against, previous convictions, witnesses, the verdict and sentence.
The GMPM has calendars of Prisoners from the Manchester Assizes from 1882-1964 (with gaps). Many of these contain mug shots.
One of the best sources of physical descriptions of prisoners are prison registers. Sadly no Manchester Prison registers after 1879 survive...or at least that is what the Ministry of Justice inform me. In the Andrew Davies book he quite clearly quotes from some prison registers post 1879. As he spent more than 20 years researching the book he was unable to tell me exactly when he carried out his research. This may have been prior to the the riot at Strangeways in 1990 (when it was thought all the prison registers were destroyed) or after 1990.
It was subsequently discovered that some 52 registers from the New Bailey, Strangeways and the Manchester Borough Gaol survived. I have researched extensively 50 of these registers, the other two are unfit for production to the public and are awaiting conservation.
Gerard
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delsol
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by delsol on Dec 9, 2010 12:19:26 GMT
Thanks for that information Gerard, it was really useful. I will have to try and get to Marshall Street and GMPM one day and have a good look. Regards, Jill
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Woody
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Post by Woody on Dec 10, 2010 20:36:30 GMT
Hi Jill
I can't do any better than Gerard's thorough response about mug shots, etc, but all the court appearances you asked about are there (plus a few more, I suspect !).
28th June 1875, Manchester Qtr Sessions: Elizabeth: acquitted of larceny
29th Nov 1883, Manchester Qtr Sessions: William: convicted of 'larceny' and sentenced to 2 years jail plus 2 years police supervision
11 Dec 1878, Manchester Qtr Sessions: John: convicted of 'breaking & entering buildings and larceny therein'. Sentenced to 6 months hard labour. The interesting thing is that there's a William McLoughlin and Elizabeth McLoughlin (she's on a different page) appearing at the same court and sentenced to 3 months with hard labour and 6 months jail with hard labour respectively for 'receiving stolen goods'. That all these names appear in proximity to each other might just be a coincidence.
20th July 1881, Wigan Qtr Sessions: John: Convicted of 'larceny after previous conviction' and sentenced to 12 months jail with hard labour.
30 July 1883, Liverpool Qtr Sessions: John: Convicted of 'burglary before conviction of a felony' and sentenced to 15 months in jail
In all cases there seem to be groups of people accused of either the same or similar offences. I saved the copies if you want the originals.
Woody
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Post by Gerard Lodge on Dec 11, 2010 20:26:31 GMT
Hello Woody and Jill,
Trying not to be too pedantic, I stand by the details of my earlier reply which made reference ONLY to MANCHESTER Quarter Sessions. The calendars of Prisoners for Manchester do not contain the name McCloughlin for the relevant Quarter Sessions for 1875 and 1883. Theses can be viewed on line at www.dswebhosting.info/manchester/DServe.exe?dsqApp=Site11&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=Search.tcl
Having now checked the Criminal Register for England and Wales I can see the entries that Woody quotes, however the entry for 28th June 1875 state that these are "Returns of all Persons Committed, or Bailed to appear for Trial or Indicted at the General Quarter Sessions of the peace held at Lancaster and by adjournment at Preston Manchester and Kirkdale."
Likewise the entry for 29th November 1883 states: "Returns of all Persons Committed, or Bailed to appear for trial or Indicted at the General Quarter Sessions of the peace held at Preston and at Manchester on the 3rd day of December 1883."
It is reasonable to conclude the McCloughlins mentioned were not convicted at the Manchester Quarter Sessions.
Regards,
Gerard
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