Woody
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Posts: 241
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Post by Woody on Jan 4, 2010 23:59:54 GMT
I wonder if anybody can help me out please.
I have acquired an ancestor of Polish descent and I haven’t really got a clue where to begin with tracing his history. His name is Edward Cyrott and he was born about 1921. He died in 1959 following a motor-cycle accident.
This is what I know.
Edward was in the UK by 1948 because in that year he married Irene Whittaker at Bethesda Methodist Church, Wellington Street, Dukinfield. The ‘Whittaker’ part of the history doesn’t pose a problem. I’m also assuming a courtship and that his arrival in the UK would have been earlier than 1948.
The marriage certificate gives Edward’s father’s name – Arfon Cyrott, farmer, deceased, born Poland. This information might not be as much use as it sounds because for the 100 years prior to WW1, Poland wasn’t an independent country. The family roots could equally have been in Austria, Russia or Germany.
On his marriage certificate, Edward only gives his UK address - Polish Camp H.21, St Anne’s Road, Audenshaw’.
I believe H.21 to be a reference to the network of Polish Resettlement Camps set up during and after WW2 to accommodate displaced Polish people, a system largely dismantled by 1949.
I can’t find any references to its existence. The closest I’ve come is finding Moston Camp H.20, Lightbowne Rd, Manchester 10. There’s an attached reference to Unit 17 Komp. Zaop but I don’t know what that means – it might be an indication of the Army Unit.
I do know that the place of birth is critical for any search of Polish records. I also strongly suspect that he changed his name to ‘Edward Cyrott’ - at least there is no such second name in either any of the Polish records I’ve accessed so far, or on Ancestry. Neither is there anything obvious in any of the ‘alternative spellings’ websites I’ve searched.
I’ve tried the Glasgow Army Records Office but they want a precise date of birth and I don’t have one. Neither is there any record for 'Cyrott' in the National Archives
In short, I’m stuck.
Is there anyone out there who either recognises the name Cyrott, can suggest relevant alternative spellings, or has experience researching Polish ancestors ?
Cheers
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Ann
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Post by Ann on Jan 5, 2010 9:15:41 GMT
Hi Woody,
Cyrott does sound like an phoenetic version of a Polish surname - probably had a z after the c. It may sound a bit obvious, but have you tried contacting a UK Polish club (online) to see if anyone there could suggest a Polish version of Cyrott?
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Woody
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Posts: 241
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Post by Woody on Jan 5, 2010 12:38:34 GMT
Hi Ann Thanks very much for these pointers. After having spent nearly two weeks getting precisely nowhere with this one, I've been feeling like a complete novice so any suggestion about avenues to explore is most welcome. I've found a Polish Club in Lees Road, Ashton so I'll have a walk up there as soon as the council gritters decide to come out of hibernation. I think you're right about the phonetic substitution and I've found a table giving all the possibilities on www.familysearch.org which might prove useful. At a first trawl, that led to me finding a few people caled 'Szirota' in Germany, but better still there are 'Cirotski' emigrees in Canada as well. Interestingly, these included four brothers who all changed their second name but each of them then spelled the new version differently. No wonder it's proving difficult. That prompted me to think that his father's name (Arfon) sounds a bit too Welsh, so he might well have been 'Aaron'. Keep 'em coming
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Post by ginger on Jan 5, 2010 23:21:16 GMT
Hi Woody
Re-Polish Camp H.21, St Anne’s Road, Audenshaw’.
In the late 40's and early 50's (1940/50's that is ;D) I used to walk from what would have been the end of the old part of St Ann's Rd, Denton (before the new estate was built) to Shepley Industrial Estate taking Dad his dinner and I passed a camp that I was told was for Italian's, I wonder if this could have also been used for Polish people
Mo
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Woody
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Posts: 241
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Post by Woody on Jan 6, 2010 1:15:35 GMT
Thanks vey much for passing on that memory, Mo.
It's exactly the information I needed to confirm that there actually was at least one resettlement camp in that area of Audenshaw. It seems a bit unlikely that there were two entirely different camps for people of different nationalities so, until I find otherwise, I'll assume Polish people were accommodated there too.
I can now plough on trying to trace the records with a bit more confidence that I'm not just chasing a myth.
Actually, now that you've prompted me to think about it more broadly, Edward and Irene Cyrott's other daughter married an Italian man whose family had very strong Ukrainian links through marriage. The respective parents were all born around 1920, but there are are no UK BMD records for any members of these families prior to the marriages here between 1948 & 1955.
I'll bet a pound to a penny they were all resident at the St Anne's Road camp at the same time. I would never have thought about that possibility without your comment about the Italian Camp so these morsels of information, however irrelevant they might seem, are already proving useful in building up a more complete picture.
Cheers
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Post by Gay J Oliver on Jan 6, 2010 10:36:10 GMT
Hi Woody,
This man might be able to shed some light. He is from Audenshaw Local History Society - I've met him and he is always digging into unusual aspects of Audenshaw's history and patiently researching through newspaper archives. He has an interest in Military History, so may have gained incidental knowledge around the period. This is taken form their website:
GENEALOGICAL RESEARCH IN AUDENSHAW Audenshaw Local History Society has for some time been receiving enquiries relating to family history and can now offer a limited amount of research help within the area. Research queries taking up to one hour will be done free. Where research takes more than one hour a donation of £10 to the Society is required. In each case any costs incurred in supplying certificates or copies of documents will be need to be paid for and details will be sent prior to research being undertaken, when asking for information please put ALHS Genealogy in the subject line. Email your requests to Anthony Steven at rogerbrook@btinternet.com
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Also Guide Bridge/Audenshaw does have few a Lithuanian emigres escaped from Russia at the end of the war, quite a few are members of the Ukranian Club in Guide Bridge. I have a couple of Lithuanian friends who did Anglicise their names eg Romaldis/Ron, Antanis/Tony.
Good Luck!! Would love to know if you ever solve this.
GAY
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Post by Gay J Oliver on Jan 6, 2010 15:19:42 GMT
Maybe another small clue. When I went on an organised trip round the Fairfield Moravian Centre last May, the lady giving the presentation told us that at one time their congregation had diminished significantly and it looked like thay may have to close or merge with another congregation, but they were saved by the number of Polish People attending the church.
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Post by ginger on Jan 6, 2010 15:55:26 GMT
Hi Woody
Another thought I got in the wee small hours of the morning Could H 21 be Hut 21?
Mo
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Woody
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Posts: 241
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Post by Woody on Jan 7, 2010 1:53:11 GMT
Wijac Ann, Mo & Gay I think I’m going to need all the help I can get, but with all the small individual contibutions now adding up, I feel that I’m making progress on this one, thanks. There seems to be a tiny light at the end of the tunnel. I just hope it’s not a train coming towards me. Simultaneously, I had posted the request on an international message board and I’ve had a trickle of responses providing advice from Poland about potential websites. By following these up and studying the information each on-line enquiry required, I assembled a list of details I didn’t have. The length of the list made me decide to re-structure the way I’ll have to research this family. Instead of relying on e-mails and message boards, I’m going to try and find more older people I can talk to face-to-face, and as you suggested Ann, the logical first port of call must be the Polish Social club in Ashton. It’s one advantage of living in the area so I might as well try and capitalise on it. I can't get far outside because of the snow, so after what felt like two solid days ‘Googling’, I found a website that provides an account of resettlement camps and e-mailed them. www.polishresettlementcampsintheuk.co.ukAlmost immediately they indicated an awareness of the St Anne’s Road camp and although they had no details, were very informative in other ways. I would never have worked these things out for myself because I know nothing about Polish culture. But I’m learning. I’d asked specifically about the probability of Edward changing his name. They reckon that - If he had anglicised his second name, it's highly unlikely that he would have anglicised it to 'Cyrott' or, that he would have done so as early as 1948 while still living in a Polish camp. Cyrott would be a very unusual Polish second name, especially the ‘tt’ ending. ‘Edward’, on the other hand, is a relatively common Polish first name and first names are often linked to specific ‘name days’ through the birth date – in this case March 13th or October 18th. Knowing that might prove invaluable in the run for home. I’m now pondering whether it was simply that the Registrar of births, deaths and marriages didn’t know how to spell Edward's second name properly and either guessed or used a phonetic spelling. It wouldn’t be the first time we've come across that problem in BMD records. They confirmed that your wee small hours thought was right too, Mo. H.21 would have been a reference to the camp Hut Number. The other potential sources they provided were a Polish ex-Combatant Association in Manchester and a specific Ministry of Defence Unit at Northolt Barracks that deals with Polish ex-service records. Apparently, there used to be a specific Audenshaw ex Combatant branch but it amalgamated with the Manchester group and there’s still a possibility that some ex-Audenshaw members will still be alive. And there’s bound to be a bar in the club. I’ll chase up your reference to the AFHS, Gay although I’ll probably see how far I can get assembling more base information before I approach anybody there. Finally, and well off-topic, I was struggling to walk across the road outside my house at lunchtime today. Nearly a foot of snow has fallen on top of the weekend ice, and there’s a slight incline so driving up that is difficult to say the least. A medium sized delivery truck was skidding all over the place trying to get up the incline, and one of my neighbours was gently trying to advise the driver about how best to tackle the dilemma. The driver all but said outright that there was no way he would be accepting advice about driving from a woman. Of course, he would be blissfully unaware that she’s lived in Canada. The van’s still there, abandoned, and she’s since driven to Burnley and back. Can’t life be sweet. Pieni¹dze (I think)
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Woody
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Posts: 241
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Post by Woody on Jan 21, 2010 10:57:26 GMT
I'm making slow but steady progress on the ancestry part of this one, but I have a brick wall to get through on the Polish Resettlement Camp part.
Mo
Do you remember telling me about the whereabouts of 'The Italian Camp' in Audenshaw. Is there any chance that you can trawl your memory for more anecdotal information please ?
I did find a POW Camp for German soldiers at Mellands Road, Gorton which also seems to have been known as 'The Italian Camp' by local people. It's not the same place as the one I'm trying to research, but it might have been a 'feeder'. Apparently, there was a filtering system for displaced persons so St Anne's Road is unlikley to have been the first port of call.
Gay
I've now written to the reference you gave me for Audenshaw FHS so I'll keep my fingers crossed about getting a positive reply. I can't believe I'm the only person who's either attempted to research this place or has ancestors with connections to it.
Lack of success is just making me more determined. I can feel a newspaper article coming on !
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Post by ginger on Jan 23, 2010 19:06:38 GMT
Hi Woody
All I can think of at the moment is the local women gossiping about 2 women who were a little bit more "friendly" than the norm with the residents of the camp Still at the back of my mind is that I have seen something written about the camp (maybe when I have been trawling the local newspapers at Ashton Archives) I will keep thinking and also if I do see something I will take notes
Mo
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brian
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Post by brian on Feb 14, 2010 15:41:52 GMT
Gay, we lived in Fairfield Square from the 1930s until 1960 and I cannot remember any Polish worshipers at the church. I checked with my sister, who remembers only a Czech Moravian who was in the airforce during the war and lived nearby whilst he learned English, and also a German POW who was sought out by our minister at the end of the war to speak to the Women's Fellowship one afternoon. Perhaps this needs checking before going into the annals as a fact!
My sister recently forwarded a photo she received from a friend in Audenshaw that showed the presentation of the new statue at the entrance to the Square.
Brian
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Woody
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Posts: 241
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Post by Woody on Feb 25, 2010 21:25:47 GMT
This is just an update about tracing my Polish ancestor, Edward Cyrott. I followed up a suggestion for a contact at RAF Northolt and I'm delighted to say that, just last weekend, it produced the goods. I now have all Edward’s post-UK entry records which arms us with sufficient information - especially his parents’ names and his own date and place of birth - to start a meaningful search of the records in Poland.
It’s not all singing and hymns though. The questions on the documents are in Polish and, worse, the answers are all hand-written so I have the same problem as everyone else who’s ever had to decipher an original census return. Except it’s in Polish. So, I’ve been having a good time this week with a range of on-line dictionaries and phrase books, and I’ve learned plenty about war-torn Poland in the process. No wonder Edward never went back there. Just for the record, Edward was expelled from his family farm by the invading Germans in 1939, and then forced into joining their army. Captured by the advancing Americans in 1945, he was first assigned to Polkemmet Camp, Whitburn, West Lothian, Scotland (a reception and transit camp) and then to Castle Johnstone Camp, Renfrewshire, each time as a prisoner of war.
Re-classified as a displaced person, he joined the Polish Resettlement Corps in 1946 and then transferred to Audenshaw. He earned himself promotion in the process, and a medal which nobody knew anything about so that's a bonus. The MoD will send it on to us.
Edward was a shoemaker by trade, but found a job here at the Swan Lane Spinning Company at Haughton Green. He was discharged from the Polish Reserve List just prior to marriage. Any ideas about that place ? My other mystery remains so, despite the clues provided by members of the Forum, for which I thank them. The St Anne's Road PRC camp is still invisible but I’m not one for giving up easily. To that end, the Reporter has agreed to publish an article in which I'm inviting the good people of Tameside to send information. I just hope they send it in English.
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Post by Gay J Oliver on Feb 25, 2010 23:43:26 GMT
Hi Woody,
Thanks so much for letting us know about your response from Northolt. What an interesting topic and search this is proving to be. And, well done for your persistance.
cheers! GAY
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Post by ginger on Feb 26, 2010 0:27:59 GMT
Hi Woody Perseverance pays in the end , pleased that you are having some success and thanks for the update Mo
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